tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22517294.post116267623095452337..comments2023-08-05T17:29:04.803+01:00Comments on The Undercroft: The Hermeneutic of DissonanceAnagnostishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22517294.post-1163440305118023512006-11-13T17:51:00.000+00:002006-11-13T17:51:00.000+00:00"Who actually thinks of 'normative Catholicism' in..."Who actually thinks of 'normative Catholicism' in this way?"<BR/><BR/>Well...I do...and my children do...that's six...<BR/><BR/>And we DON'T have to vote, any more than those Tuscans, because voting is only giving our ascent to a corrupt system...<BR/><BR/>and we don't have to think about stem cell research because the decision is already made...<BR/><BR/>and we really don't have to do more than plough our fields, bless our soup and kiss our babies, because, really, we are incapable of having an effect any other way---it's just an illusion to think otherwise...<BR/><BR/>So, I do think of normative Catholicism that way...<BR/><BR/>Maybe some of you were speaking sarcastically, and I'm too dumb to pick up on it. :)romanrebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10208404600594430883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22517294.post-1163250274204748352006-11-11T13:04:00.000+00:002006-11-11T13:04:00.000+00:00.........Mercy. Looky, I'se simpleminded but earne............Mercy. Looky, I'se simpleminded but earnest. Hep me to see what ya' mean. Some questions nibble on the back o' mah brain:<BR/><BR/>Does ya' mean that Augustine, Ambrose and T.Aq was *not* making The Truth known in the context of and applied to questions of their eras? <BR/>(side historical question: was the decline of the original ancient sees<BR/> a means [of the Spirit?]to force the faith into "all the world"? If not, how ought us'uns to understand the events of early Church history?)<BR/><BR/>Is all the Roman yakkin' about working to restore "both lungs" of the Church little more'n window-dressin'? Ain't it at the invitation of Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I that Benedict XVI is headed ter Turkey in a week or so?<BR/><BR/>Ain't tryin' ter be contrary, truly not, but even though I does like yer point about folks in Dante's time not needin' ter hear from the Pope, them tuscans weren't havin' ter vote or even think on such weighty mattters as stem cell research, adult cells vs. embryonic.<BR/><BR/>I'd love ter jes' plow mah fields, say the angelus and git ter mass, an' bless mah soup and the babies goodnight...but I gotta battle fer living faithfully in times of democratic tyrany (schools, workplace, media)I gotta figger out what is moral on scientific matters cause I have moral "duty" ter vote, etc. <BR/><BR/>So, hep me think harder--doan our times and the speed of communication and dizzy pace of new obligations for moral engagement sorta force us ter see what Rome says on more thangs than Dante ever dreamed?<BR/><BR/>Lastly, I appreciates yore sketch. Very fine. Can ya' do one that is a picture of where the Holy Spirit has been since 451? 1054? 1965? Is the Spirit in us as "The Church" or is He with "The Church" as a visible reference for the authority of Christ on earth?Aunty Bellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13868780211706866610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22517294.post-1163226569261248442006-11-11T06:29:00.000+00:002006-11-11T06:29:00.000+00:00Oh, in a provisional sort of way I'm prepared to a...Oh, in a provisional sort of way I'm prepared to agree entirely with your paraphrase ('an exaggerated, unbalanced and ahistoric understanding of Papal authority' etc): without, at this stage, however, knowing quite what meaning you will attribute to 'exaggerated', 'unbalanced' and 'ahistoric': nor do I know what 'dissonance' means, yet. But I'll read happily and quietly and find out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22517294.post-1163183665488278882006-11-10T18:34:00.000+00:002006-11-10T18:34:00.000+00:00Thank you for this, easily one of the most balance...Thank you for this, easily one of the most balanced and lucidly intelligent analyses of the "postconciliar" situation. You are especially correct in noting the long roots of the crisis and the deleterious consequences of the division between East and West.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22517294.post-1163168274452377152006-11-10T14:17:00.000+00:002006-11-10T14:17:00.000+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22517294.post-1163153973344924642006-11-10T10:19:00.000+00:002006-11-10T10:19:00.000+00:00Hello marcI look forward to discovering what meani...Hello marc<BR/><BR/><I>I look forward to discovering what meaning you attribute to "ultramontanism".</I><BR/><BR/>Short of reposting the entire piece into the combox? ;-) <BR/>- an exaggerated, unbalanced and ahistoric understanding of Papal authority which emphasises the organ of Tradition (the living occupants of Magisterial office) to the exclusion of the objective <I>content</I> of Tradition. <BR/><BR/>See Hilary’s Maronite example of something Mgr Lefebvre was told by a Roman theologian during the course of negotiations: “I would rather be wrong with the Pope”.<BR/><BR/>http://anglocath.blogspot.com/2006/11/over-mountains.html<BR/><BR/><I>Who actually thinks of 'normative Catholicism' in this way?</I><BR/><BR/>Those whose experience of dissonance in the daily practice of their faith leads them to examine the relationship of the Church to her past.<BR/><BR/><I>Perhaps a certain group of people who have, for whatever reasons, locked themselves into a 'traditionalist ghetto'.</I><BR/><BR/>I’m reminded for some reason of a famous headline in an English newspaper from early in the last century: FOG ON CHANNEL – CONTINENT CUT OFF.<BR/><BR/>BenAnagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22517294.post-1163128650208069412006-11-10T03:17:00.000+00:002006-11-10T03:17:00.000+00:00"Normative Catholicism means not needing to hear f..."Normative Catholicism means not needing to hear from the Pope every five minutes, because it's not the Pope's business to supply the immediate "operative norm" of the faith, twenty four hours a day, to every Catholic on the planet". <BR/><BR/>Who actually thinks of 'normative Catholicism' in this way? Perhaps a certain group of people who have, for whatever reasons, locked themselves into a 'traditionalist ghetto'. Honestly, I don't know: but it seems to me a caricature.<BR/><BR/>I look forward to discovering what meaning you attribute to "ultramontanism".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22517294.post-1162891874119784442006-11-07T09:31:00.000+00:002006-11-07T09:31:00.000+00:00I don't think so, Julio; not Vatican I but the fal...I don't think so, Julio; not Vatican I but the <I>false "spirit of Vatican I"</I>Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22517294.post-1162858144279813252006-11-07T00:09:00.000+00:002006-11-07T00:09:00.000+00:00"We really need to wean ourselves permanently off ..."We really need to wean ourselves permanently off ultramontanism, whether Providence sends us a strong orthodox Pope or not."<BR/><BR/>Doesn't Vatican I make this a bit more difficult than it could have been without that troublesome council?<BR/><BR/>-JulioAnaxagorashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06740822202435477034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22517294.post-1162848439049880122006-11-06T21:27:00.000+00:002006-11-06T21:27:00.000+00:00Go to practically any forum or blog in TraddieWorl...Go to practically any forum or blog in TraddieWorld and adjacent territories and what do you see?<BR/><BR/><I>When will he liberate the Mass?<BR/>Will he annul the "excommunications"?<BR/>Will he go to Assisi?<BR/>Will he celebrate ad orientem?<BR/>Will he sack Mgr X, Cardinal Y?</I><BR/><BR/>etc, etc, etc.<BR/><BR/>This tells us everything about the mess we're in. It tells us how difficult it's going to be to climb out of it. We're like alcoholics,. attempting to cure ourselves with a hair of the dog.Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22517294.post-1162847137148329422006-11-06T21:05:00.000+00:002006-11-06T21:05:00.000+00:00I think perhaps I haven't made myself clear. There...I think perhaps I haven't made myself clear. There are maybe only three reasonable responses to the crisis:<BR/><BR/>1) It's all over. Roman Catholicism has fatally deconstructed itself (the Magisterium having definitively sawn off the branch it sits on).<BR/>2) When the powerful, orthodox Pope arrives in God's good time, he'll set everything to rights, and we can go on again as before (actually, I don't this IS reasonable.)<BR/>3) We really need to wean ourselves permanently off ultramontanism, whether Providence sends us a strong orthodox Pope or not. If we really believe in rebalancing the Church we have start with ourselves, and that means relinquishing the idea that everything depends on what the Pope might or might not do, what the Pope might or might not believe, even. It doesn't much matter therefore, if Benedict is every bit as bad as Anonymous and Bishop Tissier de Mallerais suspect. All he has to do is <I>"make normal Catholic life once again possible".</I> That's all; even if he doesn't re-inhabit the centre himself; even if he doesn't act to detatch the ultramontanes from their illusions - provided he does the minimum necessary to clear the ground, as it were for the seed to germinate, (and I can't see anyone else on the horizon who looks capable even of that) - then we have a chance.<BR/><BR/>Normative Catholicism means not needing to hear from the Pope every five minutes, because it's not the Pope's business to supply the immediate "operative norm" of the faith, twenty four hours a day, to every Catholic on the planet. I wonder how much the average person in the age of Dante, for example, knew, or imagined he needed to know, about the Pope and the Roman Curia? Not very much, I'd guess. That's what we need to get back to.Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22517294.post-1162837444247609632006-11-06T18:24:00.000+00:002006-11-06T18:24:00.000+00:00"Is it reasonable to hope that the Pope will help ..."Is it reasonable to hope that the Pope will help the barque of St Peter regain its keel, simply by his instinct for good taste. Or will he prolong the agony with patches?"<BR/><BR/>One of the most poignant analyses I have read on the crisis in the Church. If you only fix part of the problem, are you only prologing the death agony?Arturo Vasquezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09674281914540496859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22517294.post-1162741073863039432006-11-05T15:37:00.000+00:002006-11-05T15:37:00.000+00:00"If Benedict can't find a home fo normative Cathol..."If Benedict can't find a home fo normative Catholicism who can?"<BR/><BR/>Claptrap.<BR/><BR/>Although the pope has commendable aesthetic instincts his ethos is far from normative. <BR/><BR/>It is no use having a go at traditiuonalists for triumphalism; the question is whether an aesthetic modernist is more insidious than a brutal one. Is it reasonable to hope that the Pope will help the barque of St Peter regain its keel, simply by his instinct for good taste. Or will he prolong the agony with patches?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com